Neocron Testing Phase 2 -- Skill System Revamp

Hello all! It has been a long time since we introduced a major change…so why not shake the entire system up?

Neocron Skill System Revamp

What’s changed?

  • Main skills can now be mixed up, no longer are there main skill caps on classes. Monks can have 100 STR, Tanks can have 100 INT. You are only limited by the overall level of characters.
  • Characters now level 1-60 and will get 5 Main skill points to spend per level, and 5 Subskill points per Main skill point spent.
  • Ranking will continue to be Combat Rank / Skill Rank – Skill Rank will take into account implants and display your calculated character level. Ex: If you are level 5 with no implants, your rank would be XX / 5 – If you are level 60 with implants that give you 5 main skill points, your rank would be XX / 61 as implants give you enough main skill points to become a new level.
  • Classes will specialize in areas, but can be sculpted to be anything with some pros and cons.
  • Rare Implants and Weapons will now require Character Level 55, MC5 implants will now require character level 60. Other special world drops will require a character level as well as normal requirements. Epic rewards will require the final level required to complete the epic (AFAIK level 45)

But why?

Why not? Neocron has always been about the character builds. We are expanding the builds to allow new combinations, as well as opening up all the items to be useful and used throughout leveling and gameplay.

This will allow you to level Dex on a monk without using repair exploits, level a spy all around without having to resort to droning and exploiting, and generally make leveling a much smoother experience. Now that you gain a single XP instead of targeted XP, you can choose to cap a main skill faster or balance it out between the main skills you choose to level.

New Character Caps & Levels

Characters will now level up 1-60, starting at level 1. When you gain a level, you will earn 5 main skill points that can be spent in any skill. All skills have the ability to make it to 100, implants will be needed to push over 100. You have a total of 300 points you can spend, so you can only reach 100 in 3 main skills if you left the remaining 2 main skills at 0.

We opened this up to allow any class to train in any method they want. Monks can use pistols, spies can use cannons, tanks can use psi spells, but how effective they are with these items is determined by the class specializations below…

Class Specializations

Classes will have a bonus and a negative to certain main skills… the current formula at launch of this test phase is below.

image

Tanks are stronger in STR and CON, average in DEX, below average in INT and weakest in PSI
Spy is weakest in STR, below average in CON, stronger in INT and DEX and below average in PSI
PE is the jack of all trades with an even 1 across the entire board.
Monk is weakest in STR and CON, stronger in INT and PSI and average in DEX.

Limiting items to Character Level

We’ve decided for balance sake to limit some items to character level. Currently, you could dump all points into PSI and INT and use a Holy Lightning at level 30. We have added the level restriction of 55 to rare items, and level 60 to MC5 items. This will reserve these items for end game content and PvP.

FAQ

What about LOMs?
We have revamped the entire reskill system. Loms are no longer a thing. Instead, we apply Synaptic and charge you Credits based on the number of skills you respec. You can only respec in a safe zone or apartment.

How does a fresh character start?
Fresh characters will start at Level 1 with 5 Main Skill Points available to spend. The newbie weapons sub level 10 will have no requirements so that they can still do something before they start sculpting their build.

Are the class-specific modifiers compared to now - meaning that a tank will be 50% better at str skills than it is now, etc?
The modifiers apply to subskills before any other modifiers are added. This will change the entire balance of the game for sure, but we will monitor and make adjustments as needed to balance everything out and still stick to the original lore.

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Poor Deutsch translation below

Hallo an alle! Es ist schon lange her, dass wir eine größere Änderung… eingeführt haben, warum also nicht das gesamte System umkrempeln?

Neocron Skill System Revamp

Was wurde geändert?

  • Hauptfertigkeiten können nun gemischt werden, es gibt keine Hauptfertigkeitsobergrenzen mehr für Klassen. Mönche können 100 STR haben, Tanks können 100 INT haben. Ihr seid nur noch durch die Gesamtstufe der Charaktere begrenzt.
  • Charaktere, die jetzt die Stufen 1-60 erreichen, erhalten pro Stufe 5 Hauptfertigkeitspunkte und 5 Unterfertigkeitspunkte pro ausgegebenem Hauptfertigkeitspunkt.
  • Die Rangfolge wird weiterhin Kampfrang / Fertigkeitsrang sein - der Fertigkeitsrang berücksichtigt Implantate und zeigt die berechnete Charakterstufe an. Beispiel: Wenn du Stufe 5 ohne Implantate bist, wäre dein Rang XX / 5 – Wenn du Stufe 60 mit Implantaten bist, die dir 5 Hauptfertigkeitspunkte geben, wäre dein Rang XX / 61, da die Implantate dir genug Hauptfertigkeitspunkte geben, um eine neue Stufe zu erreichen.
  • Klassen werden sich auf bestimmte Bereiche spezialisieren, können aber mit einigen Vor- und Nachteilen in jede Richtung modelliert werden.
  • Seltene Implantate und Waffen erfordern nun Charakterstufe 55, MC5-Implantate erfordern nun Charakterstufe 60. Andere spezielle Weltdrops erfordern zusätzlich zu den normalen Anforderungen auch eine Charakterstufe. Epische Belohnungen erfordern die Endstufe, die für den Abschluss des Epos erforderlich ist (AFAIK Stufe 45).

Aber warum?

Why not? Bei Neocron ging es schon immer um die Charakter-Builds. Wir erweitern die Builds, um neue Kombinationen zu ermöglichen, sowie alle Gegenstände zu öffnen, die während des Levelns und des Spiels nützlich sind und verwendet werden können.

Das wird es euch ermöglichen, Dex bei einem Mönch zu leveln, ohne Reparatur-Exploits zu benutzen, einen Spion rundum zu leveln, ohne auf Drohnen und Exploits zurückgreifen zu müssen, und generell das Leveln zu einer viel reibungsloseren Erfahrung zu machen. Da ihr nun eine einzelne EP statt gezielter EP erhaltet, könnt ihr euch entscheiden, ob ihr eine Hauptfertigkeit schneller aufleveln wollt, oder ob ihr sie zwischen den Hauptfertigkeiten, die ihr aufleveln wollt, ausgleichen wollt.

Neue Charakter Caps & Levels

Charaktere können nun von Stufe 1 bis Stufe 60 aufsteigen, beginnend mit Stufe 1. Wenn ihr eine Stufe aufsteigt, erhaltet ihr 5 Hauptfertigkeitspunkte, die ihr in beliebige Fertigkeiten investieren könnt. Alle Fertigkeiten können bis zu 100 Punkte erreichen, um über 100 Punkte zu kommen, werden Implantate benötigt. Ihr habt insgesamt 300 Punkte, die ihr ausgeben könnt, also könnt ihr nur in 3 Hauptfertigkeiten 100 erreichen, wenn ihr die restlichen 2 Hauptfertigkeiten bei 0 belasst.

Wir haben dies geöffnet, um jeder Klasse die Möglichkeit zu geben, auf jede beliebige Weise zu trainieren. Mönche können Pistolen benutzen, Spione können Kanonen benutzen, Panzer können Psi-Zauber benutzen, aber wie effektiv sie mit diesen Gegenständen sind, wird durch die Klassenspezialisierungen unten bestimmt…

Klassenspezialisierungen

Klassen werden einen Bonus und einen Minuspunkt auf bestimmte Hauptfertigkeiten haben… die aktuelle Formel zu Beginn dieser Testphase lautet wie folgt.

image

Tanks sind stärker in STR und CON, durchschnittlich in DEX, unterdurchschnittlich in INT und am schwächsten in PSI
Spy ist am schwächsten in STR, unterdurchschnittlich in CON, stärker in INT und DEX und unterdurchschnittlich in PSI
PE ist der Tausendsassa mit einer glatten 1 über das gesamte Feld.
Mönch ist am schwächsten in STR und CON, stärker in INT und PSI und durchschnittlich in DEX.

Beschränkung der Gegenstände auf Charakterstufe

Aus Gründen der Balance haben wir beschlossen, einige Gegenstände auf die Charakterstufe zu beschränken. Derzeit könnte man alle Punkte in PSI und INT stecken und einen Heiligen Blitz auf Stufe 30 benutzen. Wir haben eine Stufenbeschränkung von 55 für seltene Gegenstände und von 60 für MC5-Gegenstände eingeführt. Dadurch werden diese Gegenstände für Endspielinhalte und PvP reserviert.

FAQ

Was ist mit LOMs?
Wir haben das gesamte Reskill-System überarbeitet. Loms gibt es nicht mehr. Stattdessen wenden wir Synaptic an und berechnen euch Credits basierend auf der Anzahl der Skills, die ihr reskillt. **Ihr könnt nur in einer sicheren Zone oder einem Apartment reskillen.

Wie fängt ein neuer Charakter an?
Neue Charaktere beginnen auf Stufe 1 mit 5 Hauptfertigkeitspunkten, die sie ausgeben können. Die Newbie-Waffen unter Stufe 10 haben keine Anforderungen, so dass sie noch etwas tun können, bevor sie beginnen, ihr Build zu formen.

Sind die klassenspezifischen Modifikatoren im Vergleich zu jetzt - was bedeutet, dass ein Tank 50% besser bei Str-Fertigkeiten sein wird als jetzt, usw.?
Die Modifikatoren gelten für Subskills, bevor andere Modifikatoren hinzugefügt werden. Dies wird mit Sicherheit die gesamte Balance des Spiels verändern, aber wir werden alles überwachen und bei Bedarf Anpassungen vornehmen, um alles auszubalancieren und uns dabei an die ursprüngliche Überlieferung zu halten.

Not so classic, but still an interesting change. Does that mean the main skills don’t have individual xp counters anymore, and all xp gained is instead collected into one universal counter?

Not so classic

  • You would be correct. We started with an NC1 base and updated a lot of items to make more sense in a modern world. If we stuck with 100% classic, the game would be broken and nobody would be interested in any long term play.

"Does that mean the main skills don’t have individual xp counters anymore, and all xp gained is instead collected into one universal counter?

  • This is correct, you have a single XP bar now and a single level to worry about. Once you level up once, you get 5 main skill points to spend, when you spend a main skill point you get 5 subskill points in that main skill to spend. You control where your XP goes now.

Looking forward to the new changes!
We got any idea when this hits?

One of the best things in NC is “odd” Skill System. I know you have the best intentions but should rather stick to the classic stuff and adjust balance on the fly when someone playes the game instead of wasting time on a new “not required” skill system.
Same story as Hacknet back in the days :wink: . Keep your freetime fun projects out of something that is called “classic”.

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You’re right. We’re going to scrap the word Classic and just be Neocron.

Thanks for the suggestion! Hope to see you in game :slight_smile:

Thats how you gain a player base for sure… :wink:

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I like the idea but, I am also a little concerned about the impact this is going to have - especially with the negative class modifiers you have in mind for the launch of this revamp.

Neocron’s subskill system, with increasing costs beyond 50, 75 & 100 attained levels (of the selfsame subskill), isn’t exactly linear to being with and, you won’t do balancing justice by just equalizing the modifiers alone in a measure of “+/- 50/25% of baseline”, or around some magic numbers like “the sum of all modifiers is 5”. We have diminishing returns for larger amounts of skillpoints spent already today and, this translates to negative modifiers hitting hard & early while positive modifiers only really kick off where higher amounts are spent (i.e., when attaining levels with increased skill costs).

Let’s look at the following graph for clarification:

EDIT: Apparently, I’m not allowed to share media content (i.e., the graphs I’ve been writing about), so you’ll have to stick with these beautiful Markdown tables; ‘MS/TSS’ stands for “(required) Main Skill (to attain a baseline-equivalent of) Targeted Sub Skill (of): N (before Implants)”.

| Mod. | MS/TSS: 25 | MS/TSS: 50 | MS/TSS: 75 | MS/TSS: 100 | MS/TSS: 125 | MS/TSS: 150 | MS/TSS: 175 |
|------|------------|------------|------------|-------------|-------------|-------------|-------------|
| 0.5  |      10.00 |      35.00 |      85.00 |      135.00 |      185.00 |      235.00 |      285.00 |
| 0.75 |       6.67 |      16.67 |      35.00 |       68.33 |      101.67 |      135.00 |      168.33 |
| 1.0  |       5.00 |      10.00 |      20.00 |       35.00 |       60.00 |       85.00 |      110.00 |
| 1.25 |       4.00 |       8.00 |      14.00 |       23.00 |       35.00 |       55.00 |       75.00 |
| 1.5  |       3.33 |       6.67 |      10.00 |       16.67 |       25.00 |       35.00 |       51.67 |

(An easy way to read this is just by measuring distances between the lines; the larger the offset to the yellow [or, any neighboring] line, the larger the impact of a chosen modifier.)

EDIT: Now, w/o the graphs you’ll have to calculate multiples and detect disparities yourself, obviously; sorry about that. Simply take two of the values you’d like to compare and see how many times one fits into the other to get a feeling of how much better/worse they are in relation. Keep in mind that any MS/TSS value >100 is generally unattainable.

Normally (yellow line, modifier 1.0), we need to invest 10 mainskill levels to attain a subskill of 50, 20 for a subskill of 75, 35 for a subskill of 100 and, an additional mainskill level for any subskill level beyond 100.

Now, if you were to enforce a peak negative modifier of 0.5 (blue line) as “50% worse than baseline” or “three times worse than peak positive”, what you actually achieve is a position 3 - 4 times worse than baseline and, something around 7 - 8 times worse than peak positive. In other words, getting a (single) subskill to a baseline-equivalent of 50 (before implants) now takes the entirety of 35 mainskill levels (i.e., the prior equivalent of subskill 100) and a (still, single) targeted subskill level equivalent of 75 (before implants) suddenly climbs to a whopping 85 mainskill levels required to get there, as you now have to raise that subskill to base 150 instead.

Translating that to a real world setup, let’s say for a Monk with currently 45 CON levels at hand (i.e., an equivalent of 4.5 subskills you may set to 50) and a modifier of 0.5, this means that even if you were to go all-in with 100 CON, you could still only reach a subskill of 50 on (100/35) ~2.9 subskills, positioning you at only 64% of the value of your prior CON setup (at 4.5) and w/o options for further compensation (as you’re now capped in CON) - although you probably just sacrificed half your INT pool to get there.

This is game (or, with the example above, at least ‘class’) breaking.

If “expanding the builds to allow new combinations” is the declared goal here, then I presume the baseline should be a way for each and every class to somehow balance their positive and negative modifiers in a manner that allows them to - at the very least - return to their old setups (e.g., by sacrificing INT/PSI on a Monk in order to boost CON to around 90, where it then is roughly as valuable as it used to be at CON 45 with the prior system) first?

Needless to say, this would (probably) only work when positive and negative modifiers on subskills are somewhat balanced around a shared limited resource; e.g., main skill levels and the amount of ‘subskill’ they’ll buy.

As outlined above; with diminishing returns, players are basically already penalized for spending larger amounts of skill points on a single subskill, so that even smaller negative modifiers (e.g., around 0.7 and 0.85; measured by their offset to baseline) can have the desired balancing (or: gatekeeping) effect. Positive modifiers on the other hand, will have to be balanced around early and late game effects more carefully, as overadjustments for one might ruin the other.

Going back to the graph above, I guess what I’m trying to say is basically just “consider keeping the curves [i.e., multiples] at more equal/comparable distance [to the baseline of 1.0] in their respective areas of concern” (i.e., the <75 ballpark for negative modifiers and, the >100 ballpark for positive ones), so that we may end up with a less game-breaking variant of this new system. Creating a 3 - 4 times worse situation on end of the scale, while making it more than 2 times better on the other end, certainly only creates disbalance.

What about something resembling the second graph below?

EDIT: Apparently, I’m not allowed to share media content (i.e., the graphs I’ve been writing about), so you’ll have to stick with these beautiful Markdown tables; ‘MS/TSS’ stands for “(required) Main Skill (to attain a baseline-equivalent of) Targeted Sub Skill (of): N (before Implants)”.

| Mod.  | MS/TSS: 25 | MS/TSS: 50 | MS/TSS: 75 | MS/TSS: 100 | MS/TSS: 125 | MS/TSS: 150 | MS/TSS: 175 |
|-------|------------|------------|------------|-------------|-------------|-------------|-------------|
| 0.715 |       6.99 |      17.97 |      39.90 |       74.86 |      109.83 |      144.79 |      179.76 |
| 0.845 |       5.92 |      13.67 |      28.25 |       53.34 |       82.93 |      112.51 |      142.10 |
| 1.0   |       5.00 |      10.00 |      20.00 |       35.00 |       60.00 |       85.00 |      110.00 |
| 1.195 |       4.18 |       8.37 |      15.10 |       25.21 |       39.60 |       60.52 |       81.44 |
| 1.415 |       3.53 |       7.07 |      11.20 |       18.27 |       28.00 |       41.01 |       58.67 |

I’ve only been eyeballing some values to convey my thoughts about the above, please don’t misunderstand this as a suggested ‘ideal’ solution - we certainly won’t get around testing with any combination here.

EDIT: Please let me know if any of the above needs further explanation.

Hi there

The new Skill System looks interessting, but I tried it out and must say, the first levels are very hard. In the old System you gain Strength and health with moving and beeing hurt. Now you gain XP only by doing something. I also have the feeling, that PSI gains less XP then shooting Grenades, by the way with a Monk - Char :wink:
So maybe there should be a overthinking of the XP gain or amount of XP you need to gain a new level. Maybe in the higher Level it can take bigger leaps, but to Level 20 I guess, it should be lowered, because at the Moment its also hard to find leveling Partner or a helpfull hand.

We’ve made adjustments to the system for a 1.0 base and 0.8 and 0.9 malus.

image

I think you couldn’t share media because you were brand new to the forum…

Have you joined the Discord?

Hello Runners

I suggest a new Bug or “feature”. Can’t build Team with other Players anymore. It always says, You can’t team with a Player wich is already in a Team. But both Players are not!